The Ethics of Pheromone Use
We buy pheromones, we use pheromones, we hope for results. Sometimes those results are an improvement of our own mood or self-esteem or self-confidence. But, frankly, most of us most of the time want to change other peoples\' behavior. Where are the limits? Where are the pitfalls? Can pheromone usage be unethical?
Let\'s look at three intentions - sexual attraction, business performance, social ease, starting with the latter. This one is the most positive and least self-interested - we intend for others to be socially at ease around us and to let down some reserve that is common in our increasingly crowded societies. This is generally a win-win situation and I\'d use pheromones without ethical hesitation.
Business - in sales, business seems willing to stoop to anything. Ideally, the buyer rationally chooses to buy or not based on their own needs and resources but in the real world, the charm and persistence of the salesman plays a big part. Walk through a mall and you\'re bombarded with all sorts of aromas - cinnamon, perfumes, etc. Caveat Emptor seems the rule of the world. Making an ethical argument AGAINST using pheromones in sales is blowing in the wind. I predict that Victoria\'s Secret stores will be wafting copulins over their female customers before long. Sometimes sales are win-win and sometimes it\'s zero-sum. I would draw the line at in-home sales - your pheromones can very well disrupt any children in the home negatively - they\'re innocent bystanders.
In the general business world - not direct sales - one is really selling oneself. If you\'re ambitious, you\'re probably working harder. But better packaging is a useful adjunct - nicer clothes, polished shoes, sophisticated cologne etc. That is generally agreed to be fair. On the other hand, using sex or the prospect of sex to advance oneself is clearly unethical and might just backfire. Still, a big advantage of pheromones is just in GETTING the attention of decision-makers.
The reason most of us are interested in pheromones is to improve our sex lives by upgrading the frequency, quality, and maybe quantity of sexual partners. Sex is also a marketplace of sorts, each individual seeking the best \"deal\" he or she can arrange. That\'s nature\'s way of getting the best genes into the next generation of homo sapiens - its worked so far, maybe too well.
So what\'s \"best?\" It\'s purely functional. If it works, its good. In that brutal evolutionary framework, exogenous pheromones are a triumph of the forebrain over the endocrine system. Just like make-up and push-up bras, important mental qualities of initiative and inventiveness are hidden behind the deceptions. Plus, success has its own smell so there is a positive feedback loop at play.
However, ethics is the defense of the good of the whole against the self-interest of the individual. So is using your smarts to be a better sexual competitor wrong? In the long run, it will make for a smarter species - the guy who knows the science will get the girl at the expense of the dumb side of beef that plays football (we hope.) Smarts will select over meat and that better prepares us (we think) for the new world of the 21st century.
There are limits - don\'t use pheromones to seduce underage girls, for example. I am a bit distressed when I see 14 year olds seeking advice on pheromone use. I doubt they are seeking just social advantage and harmony.
Another ethical problem is that pheromones work best when there they are not apparent to the intended audience. That means an element of deception, or at least concealment is involved. Again, that same deception is part of push-up bras, falsies, and silicone breast implants.
Is there a difference between arranging to get a foreign substance (your pheromones) into the nose of an unsuspecting target and slipping a roofie or \'lude into her drink? In the case of pheromones, no cases of loss of conscious thought or self-preservation has been recorded or are expected - the target retains full mental facilities but is somewhat stimulated but not out of control.
While the old saying \"All\'s fair in love and war\" may be a bit too broad, I\'d conclude that pheromone use is well within ethical bounds except for the exclusions about. Maybe a better test would be, would you be upset if exogenous pheromones were used on you? I can\'t think of an example that I could legitimately say yes.
I\'d welcome further discussions and other perspectives.
It probably would not work on me, for I have a bad sense of smell.
As far as the ethics go, I\'m pretty sure the people who have gotten what I\'ve wanted, (\"...improve our sex lives by upgrading the frequency, quality, and maybe quantity of sexual partners\") have gone through way more blatently underhanded means than I could dream up.
Maybe one could argue it\'s wrong for me to use phero\'s in a fight fire with fire sense, but too bad. People like me had to learn the hard way, with \"All is fair in love and war\".
IMO, use of pheros should already back up the fact that I know I\'m a decent person who deserves someone decent. Instead of hearing a flat-out, lack of appropriate judgement elicited \"NO\", I might get a better (fair) chance, which would also allow me to prove myself.
No surprise to me a `long-time` and fairly succesful phero user like you comes to the conclusion your and our actions are within ethical bounds. [img]images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] But I think you are right. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
What interests me is: when are we going too far? I canīt think of too many examples.
Two thoughts that are coming to my mind this time (I dont know if they are touching this subject):
1. Donīt laugh. Maybe people around us should be thankful we are improving their lifes too at our expense. [img]images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]
2. I am a bit disappointed that women are so easy to influence by some stupid chemicals and that they prefer the a-none loaded guy instead of the more sophisticated one. [img]images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]
[ April 11, 2002: Message edited by: Franki ]
A well thought out argument . Although I have no proof , I suspect that phero\'s have been used on me before .. on us , more than we would ever know .
Rest assured that what men know , women knew well in advance . They spend hundreds of hrs in reading , practice and discussion working out their angles on us and we\'re not that hard to figure out.
I have recently learned about phero\'s and now that I know, I think back to the past and wonder now if this person or that used them. It would explain why I would be mysteriously attracted to a certain girl and how she eventually was able to pitch rolled-up bread crumbs to me at her pleasure .
I personally find no ethical problem employing this as one of many tools to attract a mate . its part of the \"legitimate strategy\" to me quite different from \"roofy\'s\" . As you implied , the smartest will win out . I\'m still putting my game together but its coming.
My intention will probably always be to focus on one favorite person I like not just anyone because of the type of person I am ..
2. I am a bit disappointed that women are so easy to influence by some stupid chemicals and that they prefer the a-none loaded guy instead of the more sophisticated one.
Just goes to show what \"animals\" women really are. Typically \"you animal\" has been reserved for males, though consensual sex has always been a matter of female choice. Women behave like other mammalian females and chose based on olfaction. That\'s not a put down; it\'s a simple fact that pheromone science continues to help prove.
By the way, is anyone Christian here? Or religious?
How do your spiritual beliefs mesh with phero use? Why did God create pheros?!
Pheros wont force a women to have sex with you. Now if that were the case this would be a whole different ball game, and the world would likely be an entirely different place, pheros illegal, or both.
In light of that fact, I donít see how tempting a women to start sexual behaviour towards me is such a horrible thing for her, I may not be the most attractive guy in the world, but Iím certainly average, as by definition are 51% of males [img]images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] .
Now, I have no spiritual or religious beliefs (except maybe a slightly bigoted lack of respect for those that do have them but thatís besides the point), and I donít see why two consenting partners canít have a little fun together. If it leads to a relationship, great, if not, well, they both had fun and can move on.
As said before, if your increasing your attractiveness in any way, be it makeup, perfume, push-up bras, having a bath, cutting your hair, you are portraying an image thatís not the natural you, this is acceptable, if not compulsory for some situations in our society.
You cant argue that pheros have an effect on girls, but a girl in a revealing dress, wearing make up, a push up bra, and a alluring perfume wont have a different image and affect her sexual appeal to the average male than if she was in her scruffiest clothes buying a pint of milk at the local shop at 9:00AM. Is a chemical hitting a receptor different to an image hitting a conditioned response for attractiveness in the males mind?
(Putting aside the various theoryís of attractiveness for the sake of the argument here, so donít jump me on the details! [img]images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] )
Maybe pheros make it less noticeable that weíre making an effort, which may be why some might consider there unethical. You have an unseen advantage thatís not as obvious as wearing a designer suit to a date or whatever. This might make people slightly uncomfortable, but so would wearing a designer suit to work everyday in most jobs.
pheros can make you slightly more attractive to most women without them conciously knowing why. most women like the idea of having a partener who is attractive to them, and indeed other women. Pheros therfore simply give the women more of what she wants in you
Now, I hope that dosent sound patronisng at all, it certainly goes both ways and im sure perfume makers were using pheros for women way before us more gadget / tool loving men got on to the scene. all of this applies to women to if you swap the sexes ( apart maybe from the wearing push up bras bit [img]images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] )
[ April 12, 2002: Message edited by: Nutz ]
The essence and art of rationalization is to carefully draw a moral line you yourself are on the \'right\' side of. Deception is deception; I just embrace it as a tool of war and make no apologies. More importantly, I don\'t condemn others for where they draw their moral comfort line. My line is drawn on the compliance side of legality, for my own reasons (at least it clearly drawn and codified). I just find it amusing when rationalizers began to point the finger at others\' rationalizations. Pot calling the skillet black.
Phero users still rate higher on my deception scale than a woman using a pushup bra or having implants. Cause you can consciously look at that woman and ask yourself if it\'s real, form a judgment, investigate, ask her, whatever. She\'s presenting it openly and inviting you to look and evaluate, even if she isn\'t wearing a sign saying it is fake. Phero users on the other hand are hiding its use as best they can, going for an UNconscious effect on the target, bypassing the targets evaluation process. It\'s sneakier, more effective, and I\'m just glad it\'s legal!
If you\'ll directly ask a woman if her tits are real, you\'re more brave and less polite than I am!
As to deception, when one denies or equivocates when directly asked about pheromone use, then that\'s another level of deception. Of course, one\'s cologne choice can be considered a private matter.
Also, to be fair to women, men practice visual deception too - look at the shoulder padding in a well-tailored suit. It\'s there to enhance a man\'s shoulders - a direct analog of a push-up bra.
Right you are, but my point is those things you mention are commonly known and can be consciously considered by all parties in a social situation. The effects of those enhancements are intended to be consciously perceived, and all present can have a conscious evaluation of what they think about it, or whether they think it is real, and what that might mean to them about that person.
Phero users are at a different point on the scale for me because they are attempting to bypass conscious thought patterns and directly and surreptiously tweak the target\'s brain into attraction. They are not trying to consciously impress, they are trying to secretly manipulate brain function without target awareness.
I don\'t have a problem with it, the idea appeals to me! But for me I\'d be intellectually dishonest if I lumped it into the same category as enhancements that are consciously presented. If I TOLD people in a social setting that I was wearing pheros then it would be consciously considered by the target and equivalent to obvious visual enhancements. I\'m not going to do that - I want to trick them into thinking they are attracted to me because of my own charm/presence, not by chemicals I bought in a bottle that are affecting their brain chemistry!
FWIW, I consider phero use about the same level as becoming skillful at talking a woman into bed. Not necessarily ala \"fastseduction,\" because that level seems stilted and rather false to me; but at the level of studying what turns a woman on and using that knowledge to increase the odds of having sex. In both cases, one is attempting to create a state of arousal in the woman, then couple it to attraction to one\'s person. I guess I\'ve lived/loved long enough and seen enough sexual games come down to just accept this as part of the dance.
Dudes get real! We live in a real world where things aren\'t like we wish they were. Like many things in life, phero use is very subjective and all that we want is that it leads us closer to whatever objective we have in mind (and there\'s always an objective).
One of my favorites writer is Robert Green who recognizes that we live in a \"jungle\" and if you want to win you have to fight fire with fire. Don\'t let others make you feel guilty for pursuing your happiness.
Curious \"Aristotle\" Dude
hehe, good post irish, and true. I honestly dont care about the morals of pheros as long as they work [img]images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] I guess I wouldent tell people I dident know well that I was wearing them, and by that definition, do I consider them unethical, or am I just woried that they would see them as unethical. I guess it has to be the latter.
This is probably an intresting phycological rule / concept of some sort. but then I was only ever intrested in phycology when it helps me accive my goals [img]images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]
We are all basically predators!
Well bro, I don\'t think we\'re \'whispering\' any messages when we apply about 300 times the amount of pheros that could be produced in nature with each spray of TE. To subtly (artfully) restore what we wash off in the shower, and approximate what message our bodies really could send, we should dilute TE 300:1 and splash on a little. That would be in line with normal biology and require no explanation to an unsuspecting target to maintain \'upfront\' ethics. But none of us are doing that.
We\'re amping up to the max dose we can secretly get away with, with the intent to arouse a target in a way no naturally produced phero level ever could. And we want her to think it is us, not an artificially applied chemical, that\'s driving her crazy. Cause we want the edge that genetics/social status/timidity has denied us. Hey, I\'m all for it! I just think it\'s pretty damn sneaky, and don\'t see a lot of moral high ground in doing it. I don\'t claim any!
The guy that slips something in a girl\'s drink is trying to eliminate her will and choice and impose his own. That\'s one end of the spectrum. The nice guy that works on his character, appearance, etc. and presents himself in an open manner to a woman, inviting her approval and attraction, is the other end of the spectrum. The phero user is also aiming for her approval and attraction, but he\'s still trying to bypass her normal evaluation process either out of fear or to gain an edge. Since he\'s not telling her but doing it secretly, he is in some way trying to supplant her will with his own (otherwise he would just tell her). I think that puts him somewhere on the spectrum between the two extremes I mentioned.
Hey, in the end is doesn\'t matter - in the field we\'re doing the exact same thing, just with different self-justification! You feel it\'s all within the scope of normal social intercourse, and therefore there is no ethical delimma for you. I think it\'s outside the scope a little, because it\'s done on the sly, but I don\'t give a damn, so there is no ethical delimma for me either.
Rationalization is a beautiful thing!
Well the ethical question is fun, but I have some more questions to ask. Why do we wear scents at all? Is it unethical of me to wear deoderant? I might smell better to the fairer sex, giving me an advantage over someone who isn\'t wearing deoderant. If I like a Cologne that has pheros in it, and I don\'t know that it does (hypothetically...) am I unethical cause I like how it smells? Am I unethical if I use NLP to steer a conversation to topics I want to talk about (that was transparent.)
All pheros are to me is an advantage. We use these all the time. I can\'t see how using pheros is unethical, only how we behave. I read the speed seduction site, and in general thought, what pricks. Doesn\'t mean I won\'t buy a drink for a cute girl (although they advise not to.) But then again, is that unethical, the use of alcohol? I perfer to think that if someone is willing to hang around me (in any connotation you wish to use) it is because of me, not the pheros. Look at the folks who have received no results? Is it unethical of those who have gotten favorable results to continue while other have not?
OK, I am done with my diatribe [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
When you wear a pleasant scent, your target smells it and can decide if that means something to her about you.
When you wear deodorant, you avoid your target smelling you sweat and having a negative conscious opinion of you.
When you buy a girl a drink, she can choose to drink it or not.
When you engage a woman in conversation, she can consciously decide what she thinks about that conversation.
In all the above cases the target\'s conscious will and thoughts are intact.
When you wear pheros covered with cologne you are trying to have a secret effect on the target apart from her conscious thoughts and will. You are imposing a chemical on her system without her knowledge, with the attempt to have a direct effect on her brain. That\'s the distinction I\'m trying to point out.
I don\'t think that\'s as heinous as the guy who secretly puts something in a girl\'s drink to have his way with her, because that guy is secretly destroying a girl\'s will and thoughts. The phero user is also taking secret action, but pheros only modify the will/thoughts and don\'t paralyze them. It is a question of degree though, not a question of type for me.
I do it, so I\'m not that bothered with the implications obviously. I just like to drag my little secrets into the light occasionally so I don\'t get too smug in my self-justification.
Absolute moralists should be destroyed! (Isn\'t that ironic?) Whenever someone tries to draw a moral line for me, I usually just ignore him or her. The reality is that each one of us has a selfish reason for wearing pheros. THAT\'S A FACT. If you don\'t feel good about your decision that\'s YOUR choice.
I just try to be a rational selfish person. I know that by wearing pheros I\'m not stepping on anyone\'s toes period and enhancing my chances to get someone\'s attention. Where do you see the controversy?
Note: If you dare to respond to that last question you have misunderstood my point.
I think we\'re all in basic agreement here. There are some metaphysical issues here that we\'ll never resolve, only illuminate -if we\'re lucky.
Are we only our conscience mind? Of course not! That\'s only part of the human control system, and a small part at that. Subconscience (limbic) motivations are even more vaild that reason, in many cases. Zen would argue that we are happiest if we let go of the conscienous mindfulness.
My purpose was not to rationalize my behavior, just to explore the boundaries of the ethical and compare this new technique to other motivators and changers of others\' behavior. The possible unethical uses of pheromones seem to me to be adjuncts to other unethical behaviors. Case 1 - seducing an underage person; case 2 - using pheromones to intimidate in a sales situation - think car salesmen that get you in a room and apply pressure.
Like most tools, pheromones seem to be value-less in and of themselves - only humans generate ethical values and behaviors.
I think the ultimate test is the Golden Rule - would you use pheromones in ways that you wouldn\'t want used against you?
zen would argue that we are happiest when we are nothing. (probably a sufi joke).
This has been a good topic to discuss,but has anyone thought about the ethics of people who have a naturally high level of pheromones.I mean these guys and girls that have it all,good looks,personality and a heavy dose of sexual attraction.There are loads of them out there that use it all to get what they want out of life,( there are those that have high morals too but most don\'t.)You\'ve all seen them the heart breakers.users and abusers once they are through with you,they move on to greener and bigger pastures.These are the ones you take your pheromones to compete against,they get the best jobs,best loyal partners.What about their ethics ? They know they are on a winner ,do most of them care,I think not,so why should you all feel guilty about using pheromones?We have been the losers too long,it is time to fight on an even playing field.
ok that was my little rant .
\"Art\" is getting a message across subtly. If I look at a woman and say to myself \"Nice figure!\" and she used pushup bras, make-up, sophisticated choice of clothing, she\'s been artful. If I see her naked and say \"Nice figure!\" there\'s no art involved. Likewise, if I see her and think \"push-up bra\" she\'s shown no art.
When I first moved to San Francisco, I had a problem - I once found myself buying drinks for very artful men dressed as women - now that\'s unethical deception!
When I wear pheromones that whisper \"Very sexy man!\", I\'m not being deceptive since it is so, so very true! The pheromones just help deliver the message in an artful way.
A more challenging question is, ďHow far would you go for sex?Ē
In the big picture of things, I consider using pheromones much less of an ethical problem than eating beef (deforestation, world hunger) or using gasoline (global warming).
But Irish has a point. If it turned out that pheromones deplete the ozone layer and are manufactured by Chinese slave labor, Iíd probably find a way to rationalize them.
This has been a great discussion. Cheers, Whitehall, for bringing it up. I think that Irish represents the most honest viewpoint here. I agree that pheros work by manipulation.
I am female, and honestly, I would probably feel a bit miffed if I knew that I was attracted to an average guy PRIMARILY because he was wearing pheros. The reason why, would be because I would feel that he was relying on some chemical formula to get what he wanted, & sneakily doing something by bypassing my conscious brain. I would probably feel manipulated to think that he\'s chuckling up his sleeve thinking \'yes! another hit with this formula etc\".
Having said that, I suppose that if I was already crazy over someone anyway, it would make things even better if he wore pheros.
I think that if you\'re already confident of why women (or men) should want you, then fine. Then it\'s just like your trump card. It\'s just when someone relies on pheros as their form of power to always get what they want, that it gets more difficult to draw the line.
I am going to try going out with the people I fancy without wearing any pheros first, then see how different it is with pheros. If If I really fancied them, I would rather (personally!) know that they want me without the chemicals FIRST. This is because personally, I am using pheros just to see how I can heighten things.
But if your purpose is just to get more sex, then obviously it would be different.
I have no problems with people using them to gain an advantage over others. All\'s fair...
Anyway, I may even tell some of my targets after I\'ve used pheros.
\"How far would you go for sex?\" Good question, a.k.a.
Would you rape? Even it you knew that you couldn\'t be caught?
Civilization is in one sense the internalization of ethical behavior. I know that, in my life so far, I have made unethical choices that I regret even if I didn\'t otherwise suffer from those decisions. (Other than those few lapses, of course, I\'m a moral paragon - ha!) If more people considered the ethics of their choices we could have fewer laws (and fewer lawyers!)
Yes, we all rationalize our behaviors to support our self-interest (that may be why we have reason) but our self-interest also includes a cohesive society - I can\'t expect everyone else to act ethically if I don\'t hold myself to those same standards. Otherwise, you\'re just a cheater.
I agree it has been an interesting thread. It seems to me that if you want sex (you\'re not the \"I eat worms\" type) you think you\'re worthy. It\'s the nature of the \"selfish gene.\" My ex-wife was diagnosed with manic-depressive syndrome - she wanted children even though they had a 50/50 chance of being crazy too. I divorced her rather than collaborate with her breeding impulses and pass on the misery to innocents.
I was hoping for something to take us beyond the \"All\'s fair...\" argument and was a bit dismayed that almost everyone took a purely self-interested perspective.
Ethical behavior is something I often have to consider in my line of work. I design very powerful and potentially very dangerous machines - nuclear reactors. I can cut corners and, the odds are, no one would ever know it. Still, I consider the consequences of my decisions on the people downwind. We all depend on others acting ethically - it\'s called trust. Without some degree of trust, society breaks down and is paralyzed.
If pheromones have the potential to cause harm and the users don\'t apply self-restraint, then society will have to step in and apply sanctions and their enforcement. I\'ve given a couple of examples of pheromones\' potential unethical uses. Consider the creeps who use the Internet to attract underage sex partners. Let\'s don\'t get tagged with aiding that vice!
Please, act responsibly.
[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: Whitehall ]
Interesting discussion. The reason I use pheromones (or will be [img]images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] ) is that I am looking for a meaningful relationship, and pheromones may give me the edge in achieving that.
I don\'t buy into the argument that \"You\'re tricking the woman into going for you, when there are obviously better mates available\". Why, you ask? The reason people are attracted to one another is procreation, right? Survival of the fittest? But what you must realize when using such an argument is that less and less people procreate as the time goes by. Contraceptives and abortion kill most people\'s chances at procreating, a lot of women die from abortion, and many women have had their reproductive system permanently crippled by use of contraceptives. Also, I have seen way more creeps end up with the really hot girl, and abuse her, etc., than I want to recount. So, no, I don\'t believe most women\'s natural selections ARE for their own good most of the time, and I think pheromones have more a chance at helping good men get the serious hook-up, because things in the world of mating could hardly be more screwed up.
My point is that before questioning the ethics of bottled pheromones, you must realize that there are far more pressing and widespread issues that plague our society, and address those issues, because pheromones, well, they just might be the cure.
Thanks all for listening to me ramble [img]images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]
Very good point, Slinger! Definitely politically incorrect but historically other societies have come to the same conclusion.
Letting the young fertile female chose whom she procreates with is a modern development in industrial societies. The broader and more classic norm is arranged marriages. Of course, some of us want the US government to impose that mode on the Afgan people.
The real goal is the best NEXT generation.
\"It\'s just when someone relies on pheros as their form of power to always get what they want, that it gets more difficult to draw the line.\"
Velvet who draws the line? People have a tendency to draw the line where they best see fit (to not contradict between what they do and what they believe in). Therefore, everyone draws his own line. This line drawing game is out of control.
If you\'re having guilty feelings about something you did because someone else thinks is wrong you\'re living life according to others. And remember you can\'t please everyone.
Use pheros if you understand that in the real world things are pretty darn unfair and you must learn to adapt to the realities. If you want to be somebody quit wishing things were the way you wish they were and do something about it. Pheros helps your chances of attaining whatever your consider success with women or men...in your pursuit of happiness. Now what so unethical about that?
Oh yeah and remember to smile :-)
Curious (tells it like it is) Dude??
and really, how is using pheros that much different from a guy wearing some nice shoes?
You got to know that straight guys don\'t *really* personally care about shoes all that much (separating your foot from the ground is good, anything else is negotiable) but they also know that for some Imelda-like fetishistic reason women really want their guys to have nice shoes.
So is a guy manipulating the woman if he wears nice shoes? No.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)